@Nelson Mandela while you are not wrong this is not the time or place and you are projecting you have just admitted to skipping over 63 chapters and making wild assumptions and calling what is happening here unconsensual which it is NOT full consent and confession of feeling AND time apart to confirm as much has taken place. there is something to be said about SA in ALL stories yaoi or not being used as a cheep plot and the impact that has but children who should not even be reading sm** to begin with. doesnt matter if they see gay relationships all relationships regardless of orientation should and can depict what a healthy dynamic looks like but it isnt books jobs to model them. starts at home and real life interations. stalkers etc are not mentally well to begin with that is like saying video games cause violence when they do NOT.
Comment by ghostsounds on Nelson Mandela
4 Replies
@ghostsounds
Pt 1.
"this is not the time or place"
Actually, it is, and you have no right to decide that it isn't. I can't imagine a more fitting place to discuss themes of SA in yaoi than in a yaoi chapter with heavy SA themes.
"you are projecting"
Projecting what? Who am I projecting on? Do you actually know what that word means?
"full consent and confession of feeling AND time apart to confirm as much has taken place."
That's not how consent works. Except in the specific case where a safeword substiituing for no or stop is agreed upon beforehand, saying no is a retraction of consent given regardless of the context or circumstances that led to consent initially being given. No one has to continue having s** just because they agreed at first. If they want to stop halfway, they can. Even if Keith didn't actually want Della to stop, Della is legally liable for continuing after hearing the word no out of Keith's mouth. I doubt Keith will press charges in future chapters, but if this were real, he would have the right to, and assuming the jury had the full context and sufficient evidence, they would rule in his favor.
"but children who should not even be reading sm** to begin with"
What should happen is irrelevant. What matters is what does happen, and what happens is young people watch p*rn, read sm*t, and see lots of things that they aren't legally allowed to. For example, someone shouldn't be walking in the middle of the road but that still doesn't exempt drivers from penalties for running them over. People under 18 shouldn't be reading sm*t, but that doesn't change the fact that they do and it's harmful. I'm not saying that authors have to account for children who aren't allowed to read their works. This was originally a response to someone who said that yaois like this don't hurt anybody, which is untrue on several levels.
Pt 1.
"this is not the time or place"
Actually, it is, and you have no right to decide that it isn't. I can't imagine a more fitting place to discuss themes of SA in yaoi than in a yaoi chapter with heavy SA themes.
"you are projecting"
Projecting what? Who am I projecting on? Do you actually know what that word means?
"full consent and confession of feeling AND time apart to confirm as much has taken place."
That's not how consent works. Except in the specific case where a safeword substiituing for no or stop is agreed upon beforehand, saying no is a retraction of consent given regardless of the context or circumstances that led to consent initially being given. No one has to continue having s** just because they agreed at first. If they want to stop halfway, they can. Even if Keith didn't actually want Della to stop, Della is legally liable for continuing after hearing the word no out of Keith's mouth. I doubt Keith will press charges in future chapters, but if this were real, he would have the right to, and assuming the jury had the full context and sufficient evidence, they would rule in his favor.
"but children who should not even be reading sm** to begin with"
What should happen is irrelevant. What matters is what does happen, and what happens is young people watch p*rn, read sm*t, and see lots of things that they aren't legally allowed to. For example, someone shouldn't be walking in the middle of the road but that still doesn't exempt drivers from penalties for running them over. People under 18 shouldn't be reading sm*t, but that doesn't change the fact that they do and it's harmful. I'm not saying that authors have to account for children who aren't allowed to read their works. This was originally a response to someone who said that yaois like this don't hurt anybody, which is untrue on several levels.
@ghostsounds
Pt 2.
Video games don't necessarily cause people to become violent, but they, like all media, have the power to shape perception. There are a lot of young people who play games like call of duty and read comics where the bad guys get torturted and come to think things like 'it's okay to torture and kill p*dophiles and criminals'. Whether they're right or wrong about that is irrelevant. What matters is that video games absolutely did play a part in them thinking that way: just like yaoi and sm*t absolutely can shape the way people think about relationships. It's not like authors have to model perfect relationships in their stories at all times, but when they choose not to, it has real impacts.
Pt 2.
Video games don't necessarily cause people to become violent, but they, like all media, have the power to shape perception. There are a lot of young people who play games like call of duty and read comics where the bad guys get torturted and come to think things like 'it's okay to torture and kill p*dophiles and criminals'. Whether they're right or wrong about that is irrelevant. What matters is that video games absolutely did play a part in them thinking that way: just like yaoi and sm*t absolutely can shape the way people think about relationships. It's not like authors have to model perfect relationships in their stories at all times, but when they choose not to, it has real impacts.
I don't think authors should be required to do anything, but I do think that the morally correct thing to do is to make it clear when a relationship is toxic. The portrayal of bad things isn't bad, but the normalization of them is. I respect authors who write stories that reflect heavy topics to inform people about them. I respect survivors of abuse, trafficking, r*pe, violence, war, and all other tragedies who share their stories. The difference between a trafficking survivor telling people about trafficking and a yaoi author depicting trafficking as an acceptable relationship with the trafficker having no consequences of any kind is the way it is approached. Yaoi authors are often very insensitive and frequently handle SA, dating violence, trafficking, and other topics like this with little to no care, and that is the problem more than them depicting the topic itself.
@ghostsounds
Pt 3.
I bet you didn't even know that when Della coerced Keith into s*x and then gave him benefits in exchange, that was a human trafficking scenario. I didn't read past chapter 6, but I can tell you that when Keith offered himself to Della because it was his 'only option', it was still a relationship founded on threats, violence, coercion, r*pe, and human trafficking. Every time they have s*x after that while Della still has power over Keith, that's the context of their interactions. Even if Keith becomes more willing as time goes on, that doesn't make it less of a trafficking scenario. That's actually exactly what traffickers want to happen and will try to make happen: for their victims to accept the situation as normal or even good and actively, 'willingly' participate. Many trafficking victims develop Stockholm syndrome and will even join their traffickers operation and become traffickers themselves.
Pt 3.
I bet you didn't even know that when Della coerced Keith into s*x and then gave him benefits in exchange, that was a human trafficking scenario. I didn't read past chapter 6, but I can tell you that when Keith offered himself to Della because it was his 'only option', it was still a relationship founded on threats, violence, coercion, r*pe, and human trafficking. Every time they have s*x after that while Della still has power over Keith, that's the context of their interactions. Even if Keith becomes more willing as time goes on, that doesn't make it less of a trafficking scenario. That's actually exactly what traffickers want to happen and will try to make happen: for their victims to accept the situation as normal or even good and actively, 'willingly' participate. Many trafficking victims develop Stockholm syndrome and will even join their traffickers operation and become traffickers themselves.
@ghostsounds Just ignore that entire esay. There's no need to reply to that bible right there